Player Substitution

1 2 3 4
  • I brought it up at a district meeting last night as well, I thought LL was supposed to change that for this season, but it looks like they didn't. When using CBO it should be free substitution.

  • it still boggles my mind that someone would think that 6 outs in the field is an acceptable amount of manadatory play for a player who is at the game at the start of the game and the games goes a full six innings.

    IMO the rule should be changed to "no player can sit two consecutives innings on defense" At a minimum, all players would then get 9 outs in a six inning game.

  • I'm with Kyle on this one. 4.04 states that in CBO players can be entered/re-entered anytime as long as mandatory play is met at some point during the game. If we use 3.03 and require "subs" to complete 6 consecutive outs before being removed like LLB&S is saying to to in its posts then we also have to use 3.03 #4 and say that these "subs" also cannot reenter once they've been removed right LLB&S? This makes no sense to me and has contradicted everything I've ever been told about CBO.

    Also Kyle, the RIM says that the last out is substituted for an injured runner.

  • "Also Kyle, the RIM says that the last out is substituted for an injured runner."

    What if it's the first inning, and there are no outs?

  • Also LLB&S:

    I saw that you posted this earlier:

    "Wow...what a firestorm! First, it should be clear that this ruling does NOT mean that any time a player enters the game he/she must complete the six-and-one before being removed. It only means that every player must complete it, consecutively."

    Last season, May 21, 2010 to be exact (I have a copy of the email), I was told by the WR UIC, who had asked Williamsport, that when a starter or substitute enters/re-enters they must meet the sub requirement (6+1) before they can be removed. Has this interpretation been reversed?

  • Starters can be replaced at any time regardless of the situation (i.e. number of outs). Now when the substitutes can be replaced is a matter of which rule set you are playing by, whether you are playing regular season rules, CBO, or tournament.

    Regular season - the substitute can not be replaced until they have batted at least once and played a minimum of six consecutive outs.

    CBO - It is free substitution as long as MPR is met prior to the completion of the game.

    Tournament - the substitute can not replaced until he/she has batted at least once and played either three or six consecutive defensive outs, depending on how many players are on the teams' roster.

  • Yes, I agree with you Dave and that is what the rules say. However, LL seems to be contradicting the CBO ruling with their postings on this page. They are also contradicting the email I received (in regards to 3.03) which also seems to contradict the way 3.03 is written. The interpretation in the email treats everyone who reenters as a sub and requires 6+1 before they can be removed.

    Example: Starters A and B are removed in T3 and both have batted. Then in T5 both their subs have completed 6+1 and A is reentered for his original sub. According to the email I have, B cannot reenter for A until at least T7 when A has completed 6+1 since reentering in T5.

    No one understands this ruling, but it's what I've gone with since May because it's an interpretation received from Williamsport.

    And during Tournament Play, it's 3+1 no matter how many players are on the team.

  • @Travis: Actually, this year, its 6+1 if you have fewer than 13 players on a Majors, 10/11, or 9/10 tournament team

  • Yes you are right. I forgot about the tournament rules changes. I've been dealing with so many questions about the bat moratorium and the "adult Game Coordinator" stuff

  • @Kyle, I would put the last batter in the order in to run.

    The RIM says:

    2. League is using the CBO and a player is at bat, hits the ball and is hurt while running the bases. Who takes his place on the base? It is recommended that the last out of the previous inning is the player who is substituted to run for the injured player. Or you can even use the last out of that offensive inning. What you need to watch out for is getting in a situation where the offensive team needs a run and all of a sudden they need a runner and “they” select the team’s fastest runner. Make it clean and in writing so there will never be any questions.

  • Nancy is right - it was thr trade off for allowing a coaching staff of 3 regardless of roster size.

    I understand you dilemma, Travis. I forsee a new issue come this tournament time, but I will wait until that time and see what happens.

    All I can tell you is that for the 13 years I have been in LL, the CBO meant free substitution. This wasn't just a local rule but in various discussions with the old UIC in WP and my regional office.

    The way I always remembered it was, that a starter "re-enters" the game.

    IV(i) states that each players has to play 6 outs. Doesn't say when.

    3.03 defines when.

    4.04 trumps 3.03 for leagues that choose to use CBO.

  • KYLE - You must be so proud - LOLOLOL!!!

  • Yep, I'm with you on this one. Through my years of playing and now in my 9th year of umpiring LL, CBO has always been free substitution and that's the only way I've heard/seen it done

  • I'm actually on the same board as Kyle and that's how I found this thread as well

  • Oh - well then I am very sorry for you. LOLOLOL!. Don't you guys in CA text or is telepathy the new thang these days? LOLOL!

  • @ Dave - Here in So Cali, our brains don't get frozen like back there.

  • @Nancy, @Travis, @ Dave -

    does anyone else here think that the new <13 on the tourney roster = 6+1 is going to lead to FEWER kids on tourney rosters?

    I sure do!

  • I personally think it will. Our 9/10 team had 13 players last year mainly to get the 3rd coach - then two players had to miss a game and that coach was in the stands as a spectator.

    We are a newer league and have yet to field 3 viable tournament teams - our 11/12 and our 9/10 have often been viable but 10/11 suffers in order to make these two viable. I think for 9/10, we had 11 that we considered good candidates, 12 was an additional pitcher and 13 was a player so that we could get the coach. 11, 12, and 13 got their 3+1 and that was it. I still think the managers will have an easier time getting 6+1 for 11 all-star quality players, because they are less worried about the gap left when they do a substitute. When we reach a level of maturity that we have 13 almost-equal quality players, I could see going to 13 in order to reduce the overall playing time requirements - 3+1 is more flexible than 6+1, but I don't know how many leagues really have 13 full-up, all-star quality players at each level

  • Jay - I think it will be 50/50. Some people will look at the glass half empty, some will look at it half full. If I have 2 Subs, then it's 4 innings the starters are out. If I have 4 Subs, then it's still 4 innings the subs are out. Ahh - but it's still 2 at-bats vs 4 at-bats. Advantage - taking less players.

    I look at it this way - LL's objective is to encourage leagues to allow more kids to play. In a situation like this, I believe a survey to all local leagues pinpointing the best method to accomplish this would have been ideal, but alas, I am just a volunteer.

    So LL, tried the 3 coaches vs 2 coaches. While it had some success, overall, it did not achieve the desired results. Truth is that when many leagues and AS managers were faced with the question of taking more kids for more coaches or vice versa - they took less.

    Now they are trying this method. I don't believe it will succeed the desired effect either. As I pointed out above, if I take 2 subs or 4 subs, the defensive innings equals the same but I have subs batting fewer times if I take fewer subs.

    They will not get the desired effect until they hits the managers where it hurts them the most. I suspect that in a lot of leagues, the AS managers are calling the shots or at the very least, the local BOD is leaving it up to them to decide how many players to roster.

    Now imagine - Say I only want to roster 11 players. I have 4 pool play games. The choice I have is to either (a) take 2 subs, play the subs 6 consecutive outs and 1 at bat, AND be the away team against teams with more players - I think I have to think about that. What I am suggesting is that the team with the fewest players present at the game is always the "away" team. Now as the manager, I may not like my chances always being the away team, but if I took 1 more sub, then maybe I woulnd't have to face that dilemma.

    This isn't a new idea. About 3 years ago, LL was going to do exactly this. It was written. It was in stone. Then people whined about it. Why did they whine? Because they (mostly league officials and managers or coaches involved with AS teams) knew it would put their team at a disadvantage if they choose to only take 10 or 11 kids on a team. Within months of writing the rule, LL got peer pressured and removed the rule.

    Hey - that's just my opinion. I do think that if LL really wants to achieve this goal, then they to attack the problem where it lies and that is with the coaching staffs of these teams.

  • I also think it will be 50/50. Some teams went with 13 players to get a 3rd coach, some had 11, and others had 12.

    I can see the teams who went with 13 to get the extra coach possibly dropping to 11 players. Teams that had 12 may carry 13 to reduce the minimum play. Teams that had 11 will probably continue to carry 11 since I don't see this affecting them that much.

  • I think the rule should simply be that all tournament teams roster a minimum of 12 players. I understand the logic behind 13 players as one more kid gets the "experience". But more times than not that 13th player just sees 1 & 1 and walks away disappointed and his parents become constant complainers about playing time.

    Our league requires a minimum of 12 per All Star team. Most of our Managers take 13. Then they complain to the BOD that a certain parent is complaining about playing time.

    Don't forget, the majority of teams in the world don't make it out of District play. It's a short season for those teams.

  • Rick - I couldn't agree more. I can't tell you how many games I won as an AS manager only to have it ruined by a parent complaining about playing time. I always took 13 or 14 kids. As a small league, I didn't want to hurt some kids feelings by having him be the only one excluded. Caught heck for it every year. If I had to do it over again, I would have taken 11, maybe 12.

  • I love listening to people argue about the number of kids to take on an AS team. Yet, international teams almost always have 14. These kids were ALL the best players on their respective teams during the season. They probably all batted 1-4 in the lineup. I just don't understand the problem.

    As for the CBO argument.... well, I'm in the camp that says that all the players are starters and they're allowed free substitution.

  • I have a question regarding substitutions with regards to the

    tournament rules. I have 13 kids on my roster and at the field.

    I have only managed with a continuous batting order, so subbing

    is new to me for All-Stars.

    For Example:

    We are visitors.

    My batting order is:

    1. Peter (LF)

    2. Drew (P)

    3. James (3B)

    4. John (2B)

    5. Phil (1B)

    6. Tommy (SS)

    7. Matt (RF)

    8. Bart (C)

    9. Jim (CF)

    BENCH

    10. Simon

    11. Tad

    12. Jude

    13. Paul

    In the bottom of the second, my pitcher hits a rough patch. I need

    to remove him. I send him to 3B, and have James come to pitch. They

    don't change places in the batting order, just on the field, correct?

    In the top of the third inning, I take Jim out for Paul in CF. I get

    they are "married" and once Paul gets his minimum play time, I can swap

    the two at anytime only for each other, but as much as I want, correct?

    Essentially defensive substitutions made with players in the current

    active lineup are separate than bringing in kids from the bench, correct?

    If I bring a kid off the bench that has not played yet and put him on the

    mound, he takes the place of the kid on the mound, as long as he (the

    kid on the mound) wasn't himself a replacement himself, correct?

    Sorry for the questions, I don't want to win a game after having made a mistake,

    and lose it to a protest.

  • @Joel....I've copied your questions and will answer with CAPS..."not yelling", just to show a difference;

    In the bottom of the second, my pitcher hits a rough patch. I need to remove him. I send him to 3B, and have James come to pitch. They don't change places in the batting order, just on the field, correct?

    CORRECT

    In the top of the third inning, I take Jim out for Paul in CF. I get they are "married" and once Paul gets his minimum play time, I can swap the two at anytime only for each other, but as much as I want, correct?

    ONCE EACH HAVE MET THEIR MANDATORY PLAY THEY CAN SUB FOR EACH OTHER WITH NO LIMIT AS TO THE NUMBER OF TIMES IF YOU'RE IN ONE OF THE YOUNGER DIVISIONS, SUCH AS 9/10, 10/11, 11/12S

    Essentially defensive substitutions made with players in the current active lineup are separate than bringing in kids from the bench, correct?

    CORRECT

    If I bring a kid off the bench that has not played yet and put him on the mound, he takes the place of the kid on the mound, as long as he (the kid on the mound) wasn't himself a replacement himself, correct?

    YOU CAN SUB FOR A SUB. IN ANOTHER THREAD, AN EXAMPLE WAS GIVEN HAVING 3 PLAYERS "MARRIED" TO THE SAME BATTING POSITION. Player A plays 3 consecutive def. outs in the top of the first and bats in the bottom of the first. Player B replaces A in the top of the second and bats in the bottom of the second (both have now met mandatory play, as the team has 13 or more players). Player C replaces B in the top of the 3rd and bats in the bottom of the 3rd. Now, all 3 players have met mandatory play. All 3 may substitute for each other for the rest of the game.

  • Thank you sir!

  • You're welcome, Joel. CBO is a great thing to keep all the players involved in the game, but it makes it trickier for coaches when tourney time comes around. Although for teams not doing CBO, substitution rules during the regular season are still different than at tourney time, again allowing for flexibility for the players to get into the game.

    Here's another thread you might want to review.

    http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=83124013029&topic=16726

    Within the thread is a link to Tournament FAQs.

    Enjoy your tournament!!

  • I have a question regarding substitutions at the 9/10 level for the district tournament. I have 12 rostered player's, all present at game time/

    I apologize if this has already been answered, but I don't have a 100% clear understanding of 3.03, although I think I'm almost there.

    My batting order is:

    1. Andrew

    2. Billy

    3. Carl

    4. Dave

    5. Eddie

    6. Frank

    7. George

    8. Hank

    9. Iggy

    BENCH

    10. Jack

    11. Ken

    12. Leo

    At the top of the 3rd (we're home team), I sub Jack for Andrew, Ken for Billy, and Leo for Carl. After Jack, Ken and Leo each play 6 consecutive outs and bat once, I can then sub Andrew for Dave, leaving Jack in the game, correct? Here's where my confusion begins- The only thing I have to be aware of is that Dave cannot reenter the game until Andrew completes 6 more consecutive outs and an additional at-bat, or do the original MPR not matter at that point because, as a starter, Andrew already completed his MRP in the first 2 innings?

    Thanks so much for the help. Although this is my first year managing a district team, I thought I had a clear understanding, of the rules, but want to clarify before a mistake is made.

  • Kevin

    Tournament Rule 10 replaces Regular Season Rule 3.03 in LL Tournament. Re-Entry can only occur in the same position in the batting order and only after the sub fulfills MPR (2+1). So Andrew can only re-enter the game for Jack and in the same batting slot. But the best part is that once both starter and sub have met MPR - they can enter and re-enter as many times as you want (So Jack can bat and Andrew can play defense (or vice-versa) - if Jack gets on base Andrew can re-enter to run; etc.). Here is a link to the Tournament Rules: http://www.littleleague.org/Assets/forms_pubs/tournaments/TournamentRules-Baseball.pdf

1 2 3 4