Question: If a bat is on the list of legal bats by LL. Then you think the bat has been shaved, rolled or tampered with. How are Presidents suppose handle it?
What if you can't tell if a bat has been tampered with but it sure sounds and feels like it?
If you suspect that the end cap as been removed, not by sound, or smell, but by looking at it or feeling it, then you can suspect the bat has been shaved.
Rolled is trickier. A rolled bat, in theory, isn't supposed to perform beyond 1.15 BPF, as that's exactly what the testers do, until the bat fails. Most folks will take a composite bat to the cages, or hit a ton of soft toss to break in a bat. Others will try to shortcut the process, and get it rolled. Some, maybe most, will condsider rolling to be altering, and thus illegal.
If you consider rolling to be tampering, and feel those long edges along the barrel, like some crude rollers leave, feel free to toss it. Good rollers won't leave that evidence, though. Nor will a "good" shaver. They can replace an endcap, and leave no evidence behind. There's a market for tampered bats, mostly by adult softball goons, but that's trickled down to youth ball, by idiot Dads. Sad, but true. And fellas, you can't tell, if a pro did it.
But if you can't tell for sure, there's nothing you can do about it. Weighing it won't prove anything, as I'm sure most bats don't come from the factory in the exact weight stated on the barrel. Plus, pro shavers will add weight to make up for the stuff taken out of the barrel.
What Presidents CAN do is warn their managers that their jobs are on the line if a tampered bat enters a game, since they appoint them.
Carbon bats have a certain life cycle, and take on different characteristics throughout. They start out stiff, and lifeless. As the fibers get broken down, the trampolin effect starts to happen, they get more lively. You'll even hear a difference, and may even hear loose fibers rolling around inside some of the carbon lined bats. That's normal. Lastly, they'll either go mushy and dead, or crack.
Okay Mike, so what's going on in your league?
I agree with Kyle. If I am sitting in the President's chair, I'm coming down real hard on a coach with knowledge that doesn't come forward. Considering the safety factor and the rules involved, I can see it as conduct detrimental and cause for an immediate suspension / BOD hearing. There would be a memo to every coach on every level in my league the very next day.
If it is a random parent and the coach doesn't know, that's obviously a different set of circumstances. But if "the word is out", it won't take long to find out if there is some truth to it.
@Mike Pelayo, you can find information on how to deal with altered bats in the rule book in Appendix D. It's pretty general in nature, stating that any alterations is essentially cheating. My recommendation to presidents is to treat it like any other form of cheating, such as falsely claiming a kid's age or residence--disqualification from the league for the season. It has no place in Little League.
Of course, proving it will be extremely hard, as Kyle mentions. I would just have a clear league zero-tolerance policy about it to give everyone notice.
Perhaps, as Manny suggests, a strongly worded memo to all concerned.
"Rumors are floating around our league that some players are using altered bats in Little League competition. Please be advised that this is not only illegal, but dangerous to the players, umpires and adults. Plus, it goes against the principles of Little League's motto of Courage, Character, and Loyalty.
Let it be known that if tampered bats are found, the player using them, and adults that knowingly allow their use, will be dismissed from the league. There's no place for cheating, and this is not the lesson we want to be teaching our children."
Ok, this is what happened, Durning a games 5 hrs on two different bat. one went around 240 and it didn't sound right. Then the as you can see the rumors starting flying. Well, being the President has to look into it. Now, I have asked to see the bat. What if I can't tell if there is any tampering. People are saying I should have the bat tested but I don't think I have the right to do that. So, If the bat is one the list of bats that are good to use and it has been tampered with but I can't tell. What as a President can I do? Without being used?
Tested by who? (or is it "whom"?)
People say lots of stuff, Mike. But asking you to go through the expense of getting a bat tested would probably be cost prohibitive.
They only real way is either the end cap has been obviously removed, or the you have those crease marks from a crude rolling. Other than that, you really can't prove anything.
240' is not that far. I saw one go WELL beyond that last Saturday, and have seen 300'+ foot shots from 12 year olds. Plus, a properly, legally broken in composite DOES sound different than a new one. More of a THUD, instead of a TINK!
Right now, the hot bat in town is a broken in OMEN. You saw kids on TV last year pass up the latest and greatest freebies, to say with their broken in bats. There's a reason for that.
Bottom line, there's nothing you can do.
p.s. If you can't tell it's been tampered with, what makes you think it is?
My kid and another player on his team would hit back to back HRs on a regular basis. Alot of them would go 220+. We had one game where they HRd at their first and second at bats. The other coach started complaining about a tampered bat. I offered to let his team use it the rest of the game. I can guarantee that the bat was not tampered with. Some of his kids took us up on the offer. I don't think one kid hit it out of the infield.
When you have big strong kids who put a lot of off season work in you tend to get people complaining about cheating. They seem to miss the point that the kid spent 4 hours a week every week of the off season working on his speed and hitting skills.
What I am trying to say is this, just because a kid or kids are performing well doesn't mean they are cheating. As others have said take a look at the bat. If you don't see any obvious signs of tampering chalk it up to a kid putting in a decent amount of off season work.
We had a ten year old in all-stars on our team that 4 homers in 4 games. He's just a big kid with that lefty power swing.
To my knowledge, there is not a place anywhere to test a bat. Rumors are going to fly. You have to look for certain other signs like almost all the kids on the team are using the same bat (loose lips, sink ships) or if your umpires are doing a pre-game bat check and all the kids are nervously staring at one bat to see if it passes. Better yet, when it does pass, they all cheer (had that happen two years prior to a tournament game).
The last thing you want to do is accuse a parent or player of cheating when in fact they haven't cheated. Eeks. The fallout. Ouch.
All we volunteers can do is the best that we can do. Educating oneself about bats is a large step. I guarentee that most of those spewing rumors have not taken a minute of time to educate themselves.
I've asked this in another thread but does the LL Rule Book say that bat rolling is illegal? I dont want to roll any bats but I dont want to accuse someone of cheating either. LL tests bats by rolling them. If the bat is still within tolerance the bat gets a waiver. It seems rolling a waivered bat would still be within tolerance.
Im just looking for LLs official stance/rule. Anyone really know for sure?
Todd - Rule 2.00 defines an illegal bat as "a bat that has been altered". Rolling would be altering a bat in my opinion. There is no wording that I have seen that specifically prohibits rolling, but it violates the intent if not the letter of the rule.
Why would you roll a bat? To improve it's performance over and above what has been tested and approved. Again, my opinion but I would call this cheating.
Rolling a bat won't, in theory, make a LL bat perform over 1.15 BPF, as that's the technique the testers use. During testing, the bat is rolled and tested, repeatedly until failure. If it overperforms at any point, it fails the test. So, again in theory, a rolled bat can't overperform.
So, is it broken in, or altered? I don't know.
I am going to preference this by saying I have always been one that believed that a good/great/expensive/altered bat does not make one a great hitter. I think that good work on proper hitting technique and god given skill makes one a great hitter. A decent bat can give some advantage but the best way to become the power hitter is still good old fashion work. Personally I would never allow a kid to use an altered bat.
That said, if in theory all rolling a bat does is accelerate the break in process of a composite bat. And in theory LL's testing has insured that rolling a bat does not cause it to exceed the 1.15 BPF then I have a hard time seeing it as cheating. You can achieve the same process by having every kid on the team use the bat every time they hit in preseason hitting practice. Either way the end results are the same.
@ All - It is important to remember that the rules regarding an "illegal bat" define it in several ways, including an "altered" bat. See Rule 1.10, Rule 2.00, and the appendix, in the rule books.
We would consider any bat that has been "rolled" to be "altered," and thus "illegal." So if an umpire , manager, coach or any other local league or district person has knowledge that a particular bat was rolled, they should not allow that bat to be used in games or practices.
@LL - What if you don't know if a bat has been altered. No way to tell and as a President, What can I do?
Mike, it's pretty simple really. If you can't tell, then there's nothing you can do. The president has many responsibilities, but quelling rumors is not one of them.
There are testing devices that can supposedly detect when a bat has been altered. I think they are mainly for determining if a bat has been shaved. I've never seen one in operation, but I understand they've been used in mens softball tournaments. Ask the rumor-starters if they would like to foot the bill to buy one for the league.
Otherwise, tell them to shut up and color.
Mike -
Following on to what Manny said, if you cant tell then you cant do anything. I again say if the bat looks legal why can it not be that the kids but in some extra work during the off season. I would ask the question that if the bat is checked why is the league allowing the rumors to persist.
BTW, while a high number 5 HRs in one game is not out of the question.
As for the sound what does not right mean? A wood bat makes one sound, an aluminum bat makes another, a composite handled bat makes another and a full composite bat makes yet a different sound. In fact a composite bat makes different sounds throughout its life as it breaks in and starts to break down. If the sounds was more of a thud then a ping the most likely the hit was made with a full composite bat.
@ Mike - We agree with Manny and Joe. You cannot assume that two bats that produced five home runs in one game are illegal. (We've had 320-foot home runs here at the LLB World Series with wood bats, and we've had games in which 10 home runs were hit.)
@ All, Thank you for all the input. I love this site because it really helps everyone. Again thank you!!!!
So the little league official on the board here states that rolled bats would be considered illegal not only for games but for practice.
Ok so who do I report an incident to where a LL coach admitted during a game that his teams bats were rolled. There were 5 witnesses to the conversation? So we would not be assuming anything we have a statement.
Go to the league president. He/she is the person who appoints all managers and coaches, and will probably want to know that one of his/her appointees that was approved by the board admitted to cheating.
Maybe the coach has no idea that rolling is illegal. And really, where are we going to draw the line on this? A few years back, kids would knock their bats on telephone poles to "loosen" them up. Others went to the cages, and hit those hard rubber balls to do the same thing. Altering, or breaking them in? I dunno.
We know, by the testing procedure itself, that rolling will not make a bat test over 1.15, right? That's what the testers do. Roll it, and test it. Roll it, and test it, until it fails, one way or another.
I noticed at the World Series that a lot of homers hit by the smaller kids were hit out with well used Omens, and not the latest, greatest (and free) Eastons. There's a reason for that: They're broken in. Everyone should know by now that composite bats have a predictable life. Stiff and dead. Loose and hot. Then cracked and dead. Everybody knows the best bat is the 32/22 Omen, right near the end of its life.
Kyle perhaps he did not, but a little league official on these very boards has stated that they interpret the bat altering rule to include rolling.
Fair enough. But perhaps the coaches in question didn't get that memo.
If WP wants to say it altering, that's fine. Everyone should just understand that it's not, if the testing were done properply, going to make the bat perform beyond 1.15. It will get it to it's max performance (and ultimate death) quicker, though.
Now, squishing a bat in a vise, or metal roller, may not be the brightest idea. I've held a few garage jobs in my hands, and have seen some pretty expensive COMBAT sticks ruined by some late night garage geniuses. Fractured on both sides, while trying to break it in. And obvious rookie attempt at rolling.
I've also inspected bats that I later found out to have been rolled and shaved. (Oh yeah, shaving is waaaaay illegal and dangerous to catchers and umpires). I had no idea. In the end, someone always brags, and then the cat is out of the bag. So Dads, just understand that that moment of glory you feel as your son finally clears the fence will be fleeting, because some will rat you out. (more than likely it will be your own son that posts it on his Facebook page).
Doug, I'd do as Manny says. Just let the league president handle it. It may just be a case of education, or something more sinister. But let the Prez make that call.
I think LL HQ really needs to modify the "Bat Modifications" section in the rule book to state unequivocally an official position on bat rolling. Some could argue that bat rolling is really no different than what kids do to their gloves to break them in quicker. Why wait for the glove to break in through normal use? Why not just expedite the break-in by oiling it, baking it, pounding it against the concrete, or whatever else they do nowadays?
Bat rolling is similar in theory. As Kyle mentioned, it just expedites what normal use of the bat would do through time.
If it really is a form of illegal bat modification, then LL HQ should put it in writing.
recently ordered an adult softball bat. and do to a shipping mistake, I received a bat for LL. Being skeptical of online scams, I refused to help by mailing this bat on to the original person. also after contacting the seller from Ebay informing them of the bat being torn open and looked as though it had been rewrapped was informed its buyer had had it rolled, and this person is a Sports director for the YMCA in Fort wayne IN.
After doing a goggle search for is rolled bats illegal. one of the top 5 results was
{Hottest Youth Baseball Bats for Sale - BigDawg Bat Rolling and Bat ...
www.bigdawgbatrolling.com/youth_baseball_bats_for_sale.htm
youth Baseball Below is our selection of 2011 and beyond Approved Little League Bats ... Rolled Bats for Sale Shaved Bats for Sale Bat ...} the seller whom I had purchased a 29$ worth bat from
I've said it before and I'll say it again: People complain about all the rules LL imposes, but if it weren't for the adults, LL wouldn't have to make so many rules!
There are plenty of dirt bags out there, willing to sell dangerous, illegal gear to knuckleheaded parents of children. Imaging the message these parents are teaching their kids.
Fools. All.
Kyle is right, many of the bat shaving/rolling companies have equipment which makes visual altering of the bat nearly impossible. The real truth is, the minimal difference altered bats make is not worth the witch hunt and anxiety which it creates within your league. If a cap pops off the end of a bat; as an opposing coach (which I am one) will want to take a look into the barrel to determine if the bat has been altered, and if belonging to a kid who is consistently crushing the ball. Other than that, don't worry about it. It is not worth the grief and paranoia of seeing an “altered bat” in every batters box - the kid with an altered bat STILL has to make contact and connect to get any power. You will also find that kids with altered bats generally are not known for power hitting and rarely makes a difference in their performance (kids with power do not need this alleged edge). Also, contrary to bat shaving boasting on the internet, the benefit which will be received from shaving/rolling will be so minimal, that it will hardly be recognizable. I equate bat shaving/rolling for more pop, as I equate Rogaine for those who want to grow their hair back. Our league has already went the route of examining bats which seemed overly “hot” (an Easton XL1 and Combat B4). The President pried the lids off both bats only to find that they were unaltered - needless to say, an apology went the player and his parents. To those fairly familiar with baseball equipment, one could logically conclude that the two bats in question (Easton XL1 and Combat B4) are already at the top of the bat food chain for hotness, they need no altering. Since then, the hysteria of bat altering has subsided, and everyone is again enjoying the game. I suggest the same for everyone.
All I know is if the league pried the lid off of my son's bat and came away with nothing; there would be such a loud stink to everyone who could hear me and at every time I saw said fool that it would not be a pretty scene. Most likely I would not have allowed it to happen; I would have offered the league to take the bats as their own, do as they wish but they have to give my son the identical new bat first. Then the league would have two more bats.
Going 0-2 on that witch hunt should have at a minimum cost the league 2 new bats for those kids.