Ejection/protest mess

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  • Yesterday: Started when a kid was ejected from a game for throwing a bat. (Warned in previous at-bat for doing so...)

    Umpire never filed any report from that game. Umpire informs UIC who informs commissioner. Commissioner then informs the 2 coaches in today's game that the kid is suspended for one game.

    The mess: President gets involved and tries to overrule the one game suspension. Rumors are commissioner informed her about the ejection.

    Today: Coach does not bring his son to the game (the suspension). Protests game in bottom of the 5th while trailing 6-0 because he says President is allowing the kid to play for whatever reason.

    This will now go to the protest committee to decide. Please respond so I can take this to our local protest committee so that the game is not overturned. Weird things could happen with our protest committee.

    Also, is there anyone higher up than our local BOD to go to so that this will not become a bigger nightmare than it already is???

    Pulled this off the website:

    The type of discipline noted above should be considered separate from the simple ejection of a player, manager or coach from a game, under the provisions of Rule 4.07.

    Rule 4.07 states: “When the manager, coach or a player is ejected from a game, they shall leave the field immediately and take no further part in that game. They may not sit in the stands and may not be recalled. A manager or coach ejected from a game must not be present at the games site for the remainder of that game. Any manager, coach or player ejected from a game is suspended for his or her team’s next physically played game and may not be in attendance at the game site from which they were suspended.”

    For the purposes of this rule, Little League defines “game site” is any place where the person would be considered:

    1. A participant in the game in question (coach, umpire, player, etc.), or,

    2. A viewer/spectator of that game. The local league should take care, however, to ensure that any non-adult who is ejected from a game will not be unsupervised as a result of the ejection.

    Additionally, a player, manager or coach who is ejected from a regular season game also may face further disciplinary action as noted earlier, if the local league Board of Directors believes such action is warranted. During the International Tournament, this additional discipline can only be imposed by the Little League International Tournament Committee.



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  • Luke - how was the player throwing his bat? Was he doing it in anger or disgust? Or was he just a player that doesn't drop the bat in the box after he hits the ball?

    Throwing a bat in my first example is an ejection that includes the next game and CANNOT be over ruled, as per the rule book.

    The player who can't seem to drop the bat after a hit and lets it fly against the backstop/catcher/umpire/anything within the city limits should NOT be ejected. His manager or coaches need to work with him to solve this problem. I did say should NOT be ejected but if he was then he misses the next game also.

    Since this is in the rule book, a manager can file the protest if he wants but if a BOD is worth their weight in salt they will turn his protest down. JMHO

  • I just want to get this straight. The manager with the suspended kid wants to protest the game?

    Denied.

    Next.

    WP has guided us to warn, then eject errant bat flingers. Harsh, but entirely within the rules. Me, I'd much rather give the manager the option of removing the player himself, before I have to.

  • The League President can not overrule the one game suspension. The player was EJ'd and the rules call for a mandatory one game suspension. Your DA and region should be able to clarify this if the LP still thinks she has the ability to do this, she does not.

  • Now there are situations where an improper ejection might be protested, and overturned. If an umpire mistakenly thought that coming to the plate with a wood bat would be grounds for an ejection, or something silly like that, certainly more level heads would prevail, and the EJ would be rescinded. So it's not always a bad idea, if you think the reason behind the EJ is improper, to protest it.

    But protesting it in the fifth inning of the next game IS a tad late (and stupid, IMO). You do it right away.

  • You need to protest a rule violation, there was no rule in question.

  • The player was ejected from the game and needs to lose his next game. This can't be overruled by the president. If the manager was going to protest/question the ejection, he should have done that right when the player was ejected. A protest in the 5th inning of his next game should not even be considered by the BOD.

    Also, if he didn't like the ejection, he should have been calling the president to discuss it right after the "ejection" game. Hopefully, the president would have understood the player was ejected because the manager didn't control his player/teach the player properly........and was ejected for the safety of others on the field.

    Too late and too bad for him now!

  • As the others have stated the President has no authority to over-rule the suspension, a one game suspension is MANDATORY for an ejection.

    Protest Denied - in fact there is "no grounds" for a protest.

  • Thank you for the suggestion of bringing it to the attention of our DA. The coach showed poor sportsmanship when he protested. He was down 6-0 in the bottom of the 5th inning and felt his son showed have been allowed to play (And I guess he felt his son would have made a difference) Parents and coaches tend to forget this is YOUTH baseball and it's about showing the kids the right way to do things. Complaining and moaning will not get problems solved. Hopefully our BOD and the Protest committee will seek justice.

    And yes, the kid was warned his first at-bat in throwing the bat. Second AB the kid threw the bat so hard it hit the catcher and even with the helmet on it gave him a bruise. (BTW, it was throwing the bat on the swing, not in disgust.)

    An interesting note from that game:

    A fan from one team marched toward the dugout insisting there were 3 outs. Now, an umpire, scoreboard keeper, and a scorekeeper from each team both had 2.....wow. He truly made a scene...

    Again, thank you to everyone for taking the time to respond!!

  • "A fan from one team marched toward the dugout insisting there were 3 outs. Now, an umpire, scoreboard keeper, and a scorekeeper from each team both had 2.....wow. He truly made a scene..."

    Did anyone "march him to the parking lot" !!!

    Don't let the inmates run the asylum.

  • If a player was ejected in a game would his participation in the game he was ejected from count toward his 60% for AS eligibility?

  • Huh - Where's Manny and his Administrative Removal soapbox? LOL.

    LOL Jay - Yes. He participated in the game even though he wasn't allowed to complete it. Obviously, the suspended game would not count.

  • Don't get me started, Dave...

    Jay, interesting question. I would argue that a player who doesn't meet his/her MPR would not get credit for a game participation for AS purposes.

    Say, for example, that Billy gets ejected today in the top of the first inning after striking out and throwing a fit. It's the second-to-the-last game of the season, so Billy has to sit out the season finale on Saturday as well to serve his one-game suspension. His suspension gives him the following:

    Team games: 15

    Games Billy played: 9

    Percentage: 60%

    However, the ninth game was today's game where Billy got ejected. So is it really:

    Team games: 15

    Games Billy played (and met MPR): 8

    Percentage: 53%

    I don't think the rulebook goes into detail on how to handle this situation. But I would say Billy's outta luck.

  • Manny,

    Please.. get started, or much rather, finish it. AR would be a great change IMO.

    As to participation credit. I believe WP in a thread on here stated that any participation in a game counted as a game played towards the 60% rule.

    I'll have to take a look back, unless LL responds :)

  • Manny - That is kind of what I had in my head when I asked that question but you could also have a player not 60% AS eleigible simply because a coach didn't pay attention and missed MPR for some reason.

    Missing MPR because of your own actions is one thing, missing becaue the coach/manager messed up is another.

    I would tend to agree that if you didn't 'participate' or meet MPR because of your actions too bad, if you missed MPR becasue of the manager don't penalize the player.

    This should change in 2013 with the injury Dr. excuse/waiver but I suppose one could also start an injured player for 1 pitch and then remove him and claim he participated.

  • Manny - bottom line, the league is going to put on the Affidavit that the Team Played 15 Games and the Player played in 9 of them

    There is "no proof" of the 60% participation required and how is anyone in another league going to know whether or not a player met MPR in a game or not ???

    For that matter, what if the player really only played in 7 games but the affidavit says 9, how is someone from another league going to know?

    Now, someone in the local league who's kid didn't get selected might know and complain but that may even be a stretch!

  • @Louis - The "proof" of 60% participation comes from the affidavit signed by the PA, Pres and DA. If any of those 3 is not doing their job to verify or is being dishonest, it is a problem.

  • "If any of those 3 is not doing their job to verify or is being dishonest, it is a problem."

    I agree but it's not like it hasn't happened !!!

    Once the Tournament Starts the Manager carries a package that contains proof of age and residency but there is nothing that proves proof of participation other than what is written on the Affidavit.

    If there is a question about age or residency it can be checked/verified but how do you check/veriify participation?

    I too, bank on the honesty of the people involved, but I am also not naive enough to think that no one is cheating.

    My point is, the affidavit says Johnny's team played 15 games and Johnny played in 12 of them.

    You have to "trust" that that is true, there is no proof of it.

  • Two years ago we had someone question my son's and another kids 60% participation because he was not in the line up the two times we played them during the season. This was at the Sr's level. We played this team twice within 10 days and it was during the HS playoffs. We had a number of kids missing as they were still playing HS ball. We explained this to them but they still wanted to escalate it. Fortunately our coach carried around his score book and was able to pull it out to show the kids had played in all the games they were eligible for but not in the games that were played while HS ball was still being played. A quick internet search showing the HS team roster but an end to the challenge before any calls were made.

  • "A quick internet search showing the HS team roster put an end to the challenge before any calls were made."

    Why would an internet search be needed?

    If a player is claiming an "Exemption" for school ball participation the manager is supposed to carry documentation of the participation on the school team with the Tournament Affidavit.

    From the Affidavit:

    "Exception: The period during which a candidate was a member of a middle school, junior high school or high school baseball or softball team, is not to be considered in this evaluation. If this is the case, games played as a member of a school team must be noted on a separate sheet and carried with this affidavit. (See “Eligibility” in Tournament Rules and Guidelines.)

    As for the manager carrying his score book, that is NOT a LL requirement although it may be a good idea, at least it was in this case.

  • Jay, one comment on your statement "The "proof" of 60% participation comes from the affidavit signed by the PA, Pres and DA. If any of those 3 is not doing their job to verify or is being dishonest, it is a problem."

    From the Tournament Affidavit:

    President and Player Agent Section:

    have personally reviewed this affidavit, as well as all supporting documents (birth records, proof of residence as defined by Little League Baseball, Incorporated, and proof of participation), ...

    District Administrator and ensuing Tournament Directors Section:

    By my signature below (or that of my authorized representative), I certify that the names, residences (as defined by Little League Baseball, Incorporated) and dates of birth of the persons listed on this affidavit are true and correct, ...

    I only see proof of participation mentioned in the President/PA Section, it is NOT mentioned in the DA/TD Section.

    So, my question to you, and to others out there, does your DA verify proof of participation of all the players on the Tournament Affidavit?

    If so, how is it done (by reviewing all of the teams' scorebooks)?

  • @louis said "If a player is claiming an "Exemption" for school ball participation the manager is supposed to carry documentation of the participation on the school team with the Tournament Affidavit."

    They probably had it with them. While they were pulling out the score book I quickly pulled up the roster off of the schools website.

  • Mike - as LL pointed out the MANDATORY 1 game suspension was due to a Vote at a LL Congress.

    The "problem" was that when it was left up to the local BOD a lot of BODs "waived" the one game suspension.

    In other words, they did not "back" their Umpires ejection.

    It was, in many cases, a good old boy thing (BOD member was a manager/coach and got ejected, BOD would waive the suspension for the following game).

    So, the DAs voted to make the suspension MANDATORY.

    Do managers, coaches and players get "wrongfully" ejected - yes, but I would say it is very rare.

    If someone thinks they were "wrongfully" ejected they should "appeal" to the BOD, not to get the suspension waived but to get the issue discussed so that the umpire can also give his/her side of the story.

    We monitor ejections and if we see that one umpire is giving a lot of them we find out why and, if needed we "re-calibrate" the umpire.

    Haven't seen any umpire giving a significant number of ejections (as compared to the other umpires) in years.

    Most give 1 maybe 2 all season.

  • Louis.... if you read the whole thread, I am well aware that it was at a Congress. If it was in 2004 as I believe it was, I was in Virginia Beach for it.

    Your logic becomes flawed though... because DAs are supposed to vote the will of the leagues they represent. So, if a local BOD isn't backing its umpires to suspend, then that league's President isn't going to ask a DA to cast his/her ballot in favor of the +1 rule. The fact is that unless a league had a local +1 rule (and there were some out there), the league couldn't suspend a coach without pulling the full BOD together for a "cause hearing". Adding the +1 rule eliminated a step that added too much drama to the situation. If anything, that would be the reason a President would be in favor of it.

    I never said I was against +1 in principle... I only stated that there are instances where an eject shouldn't have happened during the local league season and that by rule it can't be removed. I've seen plenty of times when someone blows the slide/veer rule and tosses a kid because they didn't understand it. It can't be changed when that happens under the current rules. Last year in a local league, a kid took his helmet off within the confines of the field... umpire tossed him out of the game on his second offense. Automatic +1, can't be changed by rule.

  • Ejections can be protested, and reversed, if they were imposed by a faulty rule interpretation. That's what the OP's situation is revolved around.

    We all know the protest was late, making it invalid, but it had merit, if lodged right after the EJ. It would have taken a protest commitee with advanced knowledge of rule interpretations (it's not in the book) to sort this one out, and correctly apply the guidance from WP that was handed down a couple of years ago. Plus, the words used by the umpire can also be a factor. If he stated that two involuntary releases of the bat will constitute an automatic ejection, that's protestable.

    Not all EJs are set in stone.

  • "Ejections can be protested, and reversed, if they were imposed by a faulty rule interpretation.

    ...

    Not all EJs are set in stone."

    So, who has to "approve" the reversal of the ejection, the local BOD?

    4.07 says the individual ejected is suspended for the next game.

    So, to waive a rule, doesn't that require Williamsport approval?

    If you allow the local BOD to "over-ride" 4.07 what other rules does the BOD get to over-ride?

    It's a one game suspension, live with it, use it as a teaching lesson (sometimes life isn't fair)!

    If it's a problem with the umpire, then deal with the umpire.

  • A protest committee can rule a rule interpretation, involving an improper ejection, invalid. That should suffice.

    If an umpire ejects the manager when an illegal bat enters the game for the first time, misinterpreting the rule, that can easily be protested, and reversed. I'm sure everyone can agree on that.

  • Why not allow the DA authority to override if truly a faulty ejection?

  • I'd want to make sure that just ejections based on rule misinterpretations are the only valid rollbacks. And that can get done at the local level.

    But, if a rule misinterpretation causes some sort of unsportsmanlike conduct, that should not be the basis for tossing an EJ. That's why EJ reports are critical.

    Say, an umpire ejects a manager for wearing jewelry (I swear, that's happened in our district). Then the manager uses some colorful language on his way out. The first EJ would be tossed, but a second EJ might be valid.

    Moral of the story: Umpires, be sure to eject several times, just for a little CYA.

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