The Miraculous

1 2 3
  • Quick question,

    If someone were to tell me they had constant pain in there body for "X" amount of time and i prayed for them and that constant pain went away immediately, is that a Miracle?

    Why?



    Like this post to subscribe to the topic.
  • The word you are seeking is "coincidence" ... old rule: correlation does not equal causation.

  • that's.........not how coincidence works???

    but what if it were 3 people one right after another?

  • Coincidence until you present evidence that shows a causal connection.

  • Jared, we've been over this many, many times. You need to show a link between your prayer and the person's healing. Until you can do this, you cannot assert such a link exists.

  • You need to show a link between your prayer and the person's healing. Until you can do this, you cannot assert such a link exists.

    okay why?

    you sidestepped what i said, if someone told you he had constant pain for four years in his hip and you prayed for him and immediately after four years it left. That's a miracle. The End. the "link" is self evident is it not?

  • Not until you can prove your prayer did anything at all. As Michelle said, you've simply proven coincidence. The End. That's not how science works. Try again.

  • Also, even if you can prove your prayer worked, you still haven't proved why your prayer worked. It doesn't at all prove any God exists, much less your specific God. For all you know, fairies helped you out because they felt sorry for your friend.

  • Jared,

    Go read:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_and_dependence

    ... and just to drive the point home:

    http://www.tylervigen.com

    Correlation is not causation. I can demonstrate statistical relationships between all kinds of things. What I have is an interesting statistic that might bear further investigation ... at most.

    In short, unless you can show that there is a causal connection, all you have is a coincidence.

  • Jared,

    Homeopathy is a billion dollar industry despite the fact that it has never been proven to have any effect past being a placebo. The fact that millions of people clearly believe it is a legitimate medicine does nothing to prove whether it actually is. This is exactly what you're doing with your claims of prayer.

  • even if you can prove your prayer worked, you still haven't proved why your prayer worked

    It doesn't at all prove any God exists, much less your specific God

    not aspiring to.

    your definition of a Miracle is "anything that suspends physics" well, its "physically impossible" for me to elevate anyone's pain by calling on Jesus and laying my hand on them.....but it still happens..

    for instance a bulging disc in the back shifting or a regaining of hearing IS physically impossible by saying "Jesus" and laying my hand on them..placebos don't work that way and you know it.

    but again like i said IF this happened, would it be a miracle by your definition?

  • Unless you have a demonstrable causal chain that connects your prayer to the event in question, you have a coincidence, nothing more.

  • Unless you have a demonstrable causal chain that connects your prayer to the event in question, you have a coincidence, nothing more.

    lets take gravity for instance, one cannot detect where or even what it is, but we have determined that its the "cause" of why things dont go floating away.

    its repeatable: when i throw "X" into the air it comes back down over and over again does that make it coincidence?

    same with "my prayer" its repeatable when calling upon Jesus BUT it defies physics and even logic. therefore, its not coincidence..

  • Jared,

    Don't draw ridiculous equivalences.

    Gravity is, among other things, measurable. It can be inspected, the mechanisms behind it described etc.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitation

    The effects of prayer cannot be measured, or even inspected. At most you can claim at causality, but you have not evidence whatsoever that establishes a causal chain between the act of prayer and a particular outcome.

    In contrast, that same causal chain can be constructed with respect to gravity, with clear causality.

  • The effects of prayer cannot be measured

    so that means it didnt happen? if i pray and someone gets healed numerous times it cannot be an observable effect of prayer? especially if its on command, not random and even specific???

  • I didn't say that - I said that until you have a clear causal chain all you have is a coincidence.

  • Jared,

    If you can prove that your magic words were the reason for a person to be cured of a sickness, then yes, that would be by definition miraculous. The problem is, nothing you have said comes close to being sufficient proof.

  • Michelle, Jason,

    let me say it again "if i pray and someone gets healed numerous times it cannot be an observable effect of prayer? especially if its on command, not random and even specific???

    your putting the cart before the horse here. in the case the causal chain is self evident..coincidence cannot be categorized this way. if something is on command, not random and even specific its by definition NOT coincidence..

    meaning if i told a house to fly to the moon and you saw it you would have to call it miraculous because physics was suspended....same with sickness..

  • meaning if i told a house to fly to the moon and you saw it you would have to call it miraculous because physics was suspended....same with sickness..

    The difference between this scenario and your so called "healing the sick" anecdote is miles apart. Firstly, we know of many reasons sicknesses go away all by themselves, without any help, including simple mind over matter. We do not know of houses spontaneously flying to the moon. However, even if we did see a house fly to the moon on your word, you would still need to prove your magic words did it.

    In order to prove what you're claiming, you need to perform double blind, peer reviewed experiments by reputable scientists and repeat your results over and over and over. You have done none of this. Firstly, to be frank, I quite simply don't believe your claims. You are making claims that magic exists and your evidence is...your word. No thinking person would ever accept this as evidence. When you can show us the peer reviewed experiments I mentioned, you will get my attention. Until then, it's just you flapping your gums.

    On a side note, prayer has been tested numerous times before and has been shown to have no effect beyond random chance.

  • Jason,

    we know of many reasons sicknesses go away all by themselves, without any help, including simple mind over matter.

    no, we really dont. if this were the case then no one would ever be sick because we can just "really believe" and it will go away. we know this isn't the case. how many millions of people "really really believe" their sickness or the loved ones sickness will "go away"?? you have no evidence that mind over matter has done anything..and that says NOTHING about things that we know the mind could not do..

    even if we did see a house fly to the moon on your word, you would still need to prove your magic words did it.

    before what? YOU believe it? before we call it "supernatural" or a miracle?? are you saying you would deny what you saw? asinine!

    like i said its on command, not random and even specific believing im a charlatan says nothing about what i really am, your just stuck in your bias presupposition..

    as for " reputable scientists" please toss a few names out that YOU dub as "reputable scientists" and that will say it all..

  • Jared:

    You obviously didn't read the articles I linked to earlier thoroughly.

    I am using coincidence with a very specific meaning. Two events which appear to occur with relation to each other are correlated. Statistical correlation merely means that there might be a relationship between the two events. It could also be simple coincidence - two random events that happen to coincide in time.

    As Jason points out, where disease is concerned, spontaneous remission is a documented phenomenon, even with serious diseases like cancers. Yes, there is evidence of prayer having a positive effect on patient mood in recovery. Mysteriously, as Jason points out, there is zero evidence that prayer can result in cure.

    Even if you have statistical correlation, you have not established a relationship, you have only established the possibility of a relationship.

    BTW - I have never seen physics get suspended, and I don't expect anything that arbitrary happens with biological processes either.

  • no, we really dont. if this were the case then no one would ever be sick because we can just "really believe" and it will go away. we know this isn't the case. how many millions of people "really really believe" their sickness or the loved ones sickness will "go away"?? you have no evidence that mind over matter has done anything..and that says NOTHING about things that we know the mind could not do..

    Yes, we really do. This is how faith healing works...but only temporarily. It's called the placebo effect and is very well known. Again, I don't believe your claims Jared, which is the main reason why I doubt your fantastic magic powers. I believe your claims are exaggerated, fabricated or simply misunderstood and until you get them studied under laboratory conditions, your word is meaningless. Only a gullible moron would believe you at your word.

    before what? YOU believe it? before we call it "supernatural" or a miracle?? are you saying you would deny what you saw? asinine!

    No...read the words I am posting VERY VERY carefully before exposing your ignorance again. If I saw a house fly to the moon, I would obviously trust my eyes. The thing I would not trust is your word that your magic powers were the cause. Again, only someone extremely gullible would take you at your word that you have magic powers.

    like i said its on command, not random and even specific believing im a charlatan says nothing about what i really am, your just stuck in your bias presupposition..

    Like I said, give me an ounce of proof outside of your word that your magic powers were the cause. Why has there never once been any of these "miracles" proven by science?

    as for " reputable scientists" please toss a few names out that YOU dub as "reputable scientists" and that will say it all..

    The names don't matter in this discussion. Some people with the proper credentials mixed with a double blind set up to exclude bias is what matters. You have done nothing but offer anecdotal bullshit.

  • Jared,

    If I tell you that my aunt's cancer was cured because my powerful invisible unicorn cured her, would that be enough "evidence" for you to take me at my word? As soon as she showed belief in my unicorn, her cancer went into remission, thus, my unicorn exists. There is no other possible explanation since the remission of her cancer and her belief in my unicorn coincided. This is exactly how you sound to us.

  • @Jared

    Michelle said -

    “The effects of prayer cannot be measured, or even inspected. At most you can claim at causality, but you have not evidence whatsoever that establishes a causal chain between the act of prayer and a particular outcome.”

    Perhaps you should document the next person you intend to pray for. Record it and rule out the possibility that the person is being treated in any other way. Then post it to this forum as evidence, then you have a starting point to make a case.

    "if i pray and someone gets healed numerous times it cannot be an observable effect of prayer? especially if its on command, not random and even specific???”

    Only if you meet the conditions of a controlled experiment.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_control

    “A scientific control is an experiment or observation designed to minimize the effects of variables other than the single independent variable. This increases the reliability of the results, often through a comparison between control measurements and the other measurements.

    An example of an experimental control might be testing plant fertilizer by giving it to only half the plants in a garden: the plants that receive no fertilizer are the control group, because they establish the baseline level of growth that the fertilizer-treated plants will be compared against. Without a control group, the experiment cannot determine whether the fertilizer-treated plants grow more than they would have if untreated.

    Ideally, all variables in an experiment will be controlled (accounted for by the control measurements) and none will be uncontrolled. In such an experiment, if all the controls work as expected, it is possible to conclude that the experiment is working as intended and that the results of the experiment are due to the effect of the variable being tested. That is, scientific controls allow an investigator to make a claim like "Two situations were identical until factor X occurred. Since factor X is the only difference between the two situations, the new outcome was caused by factor X."

    in this case prayer.

    Good luck Jared.

  • Jason,

    This is how faith healing works...but only temporarily. It's called the placebo effect and is very well known. Again, I don't believe your claims Jared

    sooo, would you like contacts to people iv prayed for?? would that make a difference? because thus fare it hasnt been temporarily..

    If I saw a house fly to the moon, I would obviously trust my eyes

    yep me too. but would your story change if you saw a person healed of constant pain in there body and they were able to test that this has worked?? would you at least say "oh,that is interesting"?

    lets say its someone you KNOW could not have gotten better. answer that one.

    If I tell you that my aunt's cancer was cured because my powerful invisible unicorn cured her, would that be enough "evidence" for you to take me at my word?

    you (and many atheists) seem use cancer as a kind of "gloss over" answer to all questions of sickness. though YES God can cure cancer, i have not said anything about cancer. my point is, be it small (like a sore toe) or big ( like bulging discs with constant pain) if it goes away because i blabbed "Jesus" at them and i do it numerous times, im vindicated to think im on to something and so are you.

    yes, i know dont you believe my claims but how does that speak for everyone?



    Updated 31 months ago by the author.
  • Michell,

    I am using coincidence with a very specific meaning. Two events which appear to occur with relation to each other are correlated. Statistical correlation merely means that there might be a relationship between the two events. It could also be simple coincidence - two random events that happen to coincide in time.

    now come on! this is silly do you at random stand in line at the store and look over to see a man saying "hey i can hear now, i dont need my hearing aid" NO.

    are you going to say over the dozens of times i have prayed for someone they ALL at that moment were "two random events that happen to coincide in time"? faith is a powerful thing..



    Updated 31 months ago by the author.
  • Alex,

    That is, scientific controls allow an investigator to make a claim like "Two situations were identical until factor X occurred. Since factor X is the only difference between the two situations, the new outcome was caused by factor X."

    im not against what your asking.

    i may not fully understand what your saying but factor X in this case is prayer and the situation is pain in the body. im just not sure if simply posting a video is worth the time if you are them going to have unreasonable scrutiny of it.

    remember when i say unreasonable scrutiny because THAT is what it will come down too..

  • @Jared:

    No, I am not being "silly", I am saying there is a huge difference between correlation and causation.

    Until you have a clear line of causality between two events, all you have is a correlation. Period. It's really that simple.

    Correlation is not the same thing as causation.

    Frankly, I don't care whether you've done this "dozens of times" or not. The study design is flawed - we are obliged to rely on your word that this happened, and that is naturally biased by your personal experiences.

    Where are the objective witnesses? Where is the double blind study that demonstrates something more than placebo effect? What is the causal chain of events? Can you demonstrate that your prayers have some direct effect on another person in isolation?

    Your claims have far too many variables to be considered anything other than correlations.

  • Until you have a clear line of causality between two events, all you have is a correlation. Period. It's really that simple.

    and this "line of causality" needs to be physical right? if you answer yes, your being circular.

    but to clarify, what is "clear" does NOT need to be physical in order to know the cause..

  • Jared:

    Clear: Inspectable, testable, reproducible.

    No magical "and then a miracle occurs" boxes in the midst of the equation.

    Get the picture?

1 2 3